Had Enough - I give up.

[Sharkey]

Bit of a "Hornets Nest", but more reaction than I expected.

 

Moving the OP onto HELP methods is logical I suppose. Language is absolutely the base of the problem. Even the differences between languages across the Image Manipulation/ Photography/ Design platforms is enormous. That statement can be miss-interpreted! :) 

 

It all goes back to the dictionary! If I cannot spell it how do I look it up in a Dictionary?

It all goes back to the thesaurus! If I spell the word wrongly the thesaurus gives no/wrong definition and suggested replacements.

 

The use of computing power to group words that relate to each other cannot/is not that difficult, 'Google' finds my answers on Mac Software problems (I know they don't exist ;) ) faster and more accurately than Apples Help setup!!

 

I think that points the way for Serif.....

 

All that aside, my own position has not changed since yesterday. It would take a massive shift in Serifs Backup methodology to bring me back into developing my skill. Not Likely!

 

I will learn a bit as I go on but will really only think along the lines of what I know from now on when editing my photographs. At least that way I can rely on pleasing one person; plus my wife of course by remaining calm and carrying on. :) 

 

Regards.   Sharkey

[toltec]

OK Sharkey, a question. After all, it is your thread  :)

 

Assuming you do carry on and keep applying yourself to learning AP, even if only to keep Mrs Sharkey happy, what would YOU like to see?

 

A manual (printed or PDF) a decent help file, an online guide, a set of examples with instructions (like Adobe's Classroom in a Book) more videos or what?

 

What would inspire you and more to the point what sort of things would you want to see in it. Some of the videos are far to "high end" in my view. 

[DavidMac]

Yeah I have found that too or NO WORDS AT ALL. 

 

AP and AD's help files are better than most but I agree that they suffer an intrinsic limitation in that they pre-suppose that you know the 'correct' terms. Correct in this case being Affinity's own terminology which, sadly, isn't always the same as others. The 'shear' and 'skew' example above is typical of this problem. It would be very helpful if the search engine used a less rigid approach in search terms. However I suspect that is far, far easier to say than to do.

 

The other huge difficulty with learning AP is that it is very bad at telling you when you are doing things wrong. Often it will let me try to do things that are not allowed without warning me that I am attempting something illegal. An example of this would be applying an FX blur to a mask layer. If you try this AP will obligingly open the FX dialogue and append a nice little 'fx' to the mask layer in the palette. But moving the slider does nothing. It simply doesn't work. It's not meant to. But what is so frustrating is that it doesn't give me an error message that I cannot do this - it pretends do it for me but doesn't actually do it. The examples of this behaviour are legion and drives me crazy because I have no way of knowing if there is a bug or problem or If I am simply asking AP to do something which I shouldn't be.

 

Like many above I also long for a manual. I fully appreciate that printed manuals are a thing of the past with almost all softwares now as they are expensive and go out of date so fast. But that doesn't mean that we couldn't have a 'static' manual. A PDF or similar that takes you step by step through processes in the same way as the video tutorials but avoids the necessity to keep stopping and starting all the time. This is relatively easily updatable as AP evolves in a way that print is not. If you are lucky enough to have twin monitors then it's even better as you can keep it constantly open on the second screen. You can of course do this with the help files but although, in my view, they are largely excellent they are of necessity a great deal more cryptic than a proper tutorial page. A proper manual can also offer some those little 'tricks' and 'wheezes' that can make life so much easier - which there simply isn't time for in a video tutorial.

 

I am a very experienced PS user from way, way back and have been using AP almost from its inception. I still work far slower in AP because it keeps throwing unexpected surprises at me or simply refuses to do what I want (because I've asked it do do something I shouldn't) but doesn't tell me so. It can be very, very frustrating at times. I won't bore you with listing all the tiny little niggles that accumulate into a bigger frustration - I have done all that before in great detail in earlier posts, but I do feel that AP has reached a point where less energy should be spent on new features and more on making it 'friendlier' and more 'practical'. Both of which are of course highly subjective ................

[Sharkey]

OK Sharkey, a question. After all, it is your thread  :)

 

Assuming you do carry on and keep applying yourself to learning AP, even if only to keep Mrs Sharkey happy, what would YOU like to see?

 

A manual (printed or PDF) a decent help file, an online guide, a set of examples with instructions (like Adobe's Classroom in a Book) more videos or what?

 

What would inspire you and more to the point what sort of things would you want to see in it. Some of the videos are far to "high end" in my view. 

 

NB:- I am no longer professionally working in photography, so have no real time constraints or pressures of that type or I would still be using PS5 & Bridge.

 

Referencing the above I am convinced that working in one environment is the most efficient way to produce good work. The more programmes/windows and application that are open the slower the 'workflow' and the deeper the knowledge base must be of each (learning curve).

 

My choice would be (knee-jerk response) the "Help" section within AP. on the File/Edit etc. tool bar (Mac).

 

If this was as easy to use, as I think it should be, it would be by far the simplest user operable assisting method.

 

Type in your keywords or question and get a response including those words AND related words/subjects directly from Serif.

 

I have no knowledge of search engines etc. other than using them so have no idea what the terminology for this is. Here I was going to give an example of thoughts but within six(6) words realised that I am c**p at expressing anything to do with the subject - so stopped :huh: .

 

Stay in AP and get an answer. Yup thats it.

 

Regards.   Sharkey

 

ps:- a last resort would be a searchable pdf I suppose but that takes you away from what you are trying to do with your photograph and puts you on the research path.

[toltec]

AP and AD's help files are better than most but I agree that they suffer an intrinsic limitation in that they pre-suppose that you know the 'correct' terms. Correct in this case being Affinity's own terminology which, sadly, isn't always the same as others. The 'shear' and 'skew' example above is typical of this problem. It would be very helpful if the search engine used a less rigid approach in search terms. However I suspect that is far, far easier to say than to do.

 

The other huge difficulty with learning AP is that it is very bad at telling you when you are doing things wrong. Often it will let me try to do things that are not allowed without warning me that I am attempting something illegal. An example of this would be applying an FX blur to a mask layer. If you try this AP will obligingly open the FX dialogue and append a nice little 'fx' to the mask layer in the palette. But moving the slider does nothing. It simply doesn't work. It's not meant to. But what is so frustrating is that it doesn't give me an error message that I cannot do this - it pretends do it for me but doesn't actually do it. The examples of this behaviour are legion and drives me crazy because I have no way of knowing if there is a bug or problem or If I am simply asking AP to do something which I shouldn't be.

 

Like many above I also long for a manual. I fully appreciate that printed manuals are a thing of the past with almost all softwares now as they are expensive and go out of date so fast. But that doesn't mean that we couldn't have a 'static' manual. A PDF or similar that takes you step by step through processes in the same way as the video tutorials but avoids the necessity to keep stopping and starting all the time. This is relatively easily updatable as AP evolves in a way that print is not. If you are lucky enough to have twin monitors then it's even better as you can keep it constantly open on the second screen. You can of course do this with the help files but although, in my view, they are largely excellent they are of necessity a great deal more cryptic than a proper tutorial page. A proper manual can also offer some those little 'tricks' and 'wheezes' that can make life so much easier - which there simply isn't time for in a video tutorial.

 

I am a very experienced PS user from way, way back and have been using AP almost from its inception. I still work far slower in AP because it keeps throwing unexpected surprises at me or simply refuses to do what I want (because I've asked it do do something I shouldn't) but doesn't tell me so. It can be very, very frustrating at times. I won't bore you with listing all the tiny little niggles that accumulate into a bigger frustration - I have done all that before in great detail in earlier posts, but I do feel that AP has reached a point where less energy should be spent on new features and more on making it 'friendlier' and more 'practical'. Both of which are of course highly subjective ................

 

On the point of separate displays I bought Xara studio to do website design and graphics. That is probably even more complex that AP. I didn't have a second monitor but used the manual PDF on a tablet. That was really helpful, not only could I search and display for what I wanted to do next to my work screen but I could also delve into the subject more deeply on the train home or whatever.

[DavidMac]

It would not be too hard for an individual or group of dedicated forum members to launch a web-based unofficial manual. A searchable text and image based manual would probably be best. I imagine that it could generate enough income through ads to virtually pay for itself.

 

Just a thought ...

 

Open source software has manuals of this sort but the problem is that they can be very disjointed and difficult, and of very inconsistent quality.

 

One of the answers is of course right here. Serif run one of the very best manufacturer driven forums on the web. Serif staff listen to their users in a way that is really quite exceptional. The quality of answers here is first class even if, as Sharkey has pointed out, sometimes at a level that can be a bit impenetrable. Even here, however, I have seen plenty of people ready to help when a user hasn't fully understood an answer.

 

I can safely state quite categorically that without the help of this excellent forum I would have l never have really got to grips with AP. The help available here has been pivotal to my progress. The negative implication of course is that the help files and videos alone would not have been enough.

 

A lot of people (like me) find videos difficult to use. Of necessity, to avoid becoming too long and unwieldy, they have a tendency to only cover only the very basic outline principals. I can't help feeling, given the large number of requests I have seen here over the last two years, that it might be in Serif's own interests to produce a good step by step example driven online manual in addition to the video tutorials and help files. Obviously it implies a lot of work and investment but the more accessible they make their software the more customers they will get and, more importantly, keep.

AD and AP are professional apps with a serious learning curve. For newcomers and migrants alike. Perhaps for migrants even more so as there are so many similarities that turn out to be just different enough to truly confuse.  ;) 

 

Users need all the help they can get ......... and the best place is still here.

 

 

 

[DavidMac]

On the point of separate displays I bought Xara studio to do website design and graphics. That is probably even more complex that AP. I didn't have a second monitor but used the manual PDF on a tablet. That was really helpful, not only could I search and display for what I wanted to do next to my work screen but I could also delve into the subject more deeply on the train home or whatever.

 

Now that is neat! It is one of those simultaneously obvious and elusive "I wish I had thought of that" ideas!

 

[R C-R]

The use of computing power to group words that relate to each other cannot/is not that difficult, 'Google' finds my answers on Mac Software problems (I know they don't exist ;) ) faster and more accurately than Apples Help setup!!

Actually, it takes a massive amount of computing power, an incredible amount of data gathering, & very sophisticated algorithms for Google or Bing or the like to generate relevant search results for anything other than exact search word matches.

 

For example, this Google article explains in very broad terms how its algorithms work. (There are five sections, each with a link that reveals info about them on lower part of the page. If nothing else, the Considering context section is worth reading for what it says about using your search history & personalizing results.)

 

Google won't say exactly how many data centers it has or how big they are, but articles like this one make it clear the infrastructure required to provide Google-like 'smart' search results are far beyond what all but a handful of companies in the entire world could ever afford to build.

 

That is what I meant about online versions of the help topics leveraging the power of 'smart' search engines like Google or Bing. Instead of searching through a PDF manual or the built-in help, users who do not know the exact word or phrase to use to find what they need could use one of these search engines.

 

The results typically would not be confined to the help topics, but that is not necessarily a bad thing: often what really is needed is a better understanding of some technique or technology, not how (or if) it can be used in any particular app.

[DavidMac]

 

I've just noticed that lynda.com offers courses on both AD and AP. Lynda is normally a paid service, but it offers a free 30 trial, which I'm sure would be more than enough.

 

https://www.lynda.com/Affinity-Photo-tutorials/Affinity-Photo-Essential-Training/453344-2.html

 

And I have just noticed that the AP course is by Steve Caplin who wrote the excellent "How to Cheat in Photoshop" series of books. I haven't checked it out but Steve is a hugely experienced professional with a remarkable ability to explain complicated things simply. 

[toltec]

 My idea would be something along the lines of

 

A PDF and maybe an online site with an index page with images of the common techniques for each section with keywords. Like my daft hippo and the vignetted Koala with descriptions for using paths.

Cutting out

Masking

Vignetting

Pen tool

Vector masking

Compound paths

Node tool

Guassian blur (which is what Serif calls vignetting, sometimes)

Replacing sky

er, cant think of any more

 

The online text would have to be suitable for non-native English speakers (like Americans ;) for things colour color etc. However, the images are multi-lingual so it would be easy for Serif to make foreign versions or even use Google translate or similar. I know it is not perfect but with pictures it would be OK.

 

Links to any videos (official or not) with listing of what they cover (someone did that). No need to re-invent the wheel and most videos are very good. 

 

Hopefully the images would even help to inspire people to try new techniques.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[Sharkey]

Actually, it takes a massive amount of computing power, an incredible amount of data gathering, & very sophisticated algorithms for Google or Bing or the like to generate relevant search results for anything other than exact search word matches.

 

For example, this Google article explains in very broad terms how its algorithms work. (There are five sections, each with a link that reveals info about them on lower part of the page. If nothing else, the Considering context section is worth reading for what it says about using your search history & personalizing results.)

 

Google won't say exactly how many data centers it has or how big they are, but articles like this one make it clear the infrastructure required to provide Google-like 'smart' search results are far beyond what all but a handful of companies in the entire world could ever afford to build.

 

That is what I meant about online versions of the help topics leveraging the power of 'smart' search engines like Google or Bing. Instead of searching through a PDF manual or the built-in help, users who do not know the exact word or phrase to use to find what they need could use one of these search engines.

 

The results typically would not be confined to the help topics, but that is not necessarily a bad thing: often what really is needed is a better understanding of some technique or technology, not how (or if) it can be used in any particular app.

 

I understand what yo have written but must point out that my Google example was just that. An example.

 

If you restrict the scope of the search (no personal records, no geographic info., references to other subjects matter e.g.. Mesopotamian mouse droppings and the rest, the search parameters are drastically reduced. Yes?

 

It still seems obvious to me that a search engine scenario within AP & AD is a straight forward answer to the question that was posed for me to answer.

 

Obviously my technical limitations make my argument suspect but and idea is not always based on what you know but what you feel. Something else working with a computer has taught me - no feeling, no ideas?

 

Logic and hardware will develop all things beyond our brains capacity to store but the idea, the inspiration still comes from somewhere else entirely.

 

The complexity that drives me away from this subject (my own doing) is not from the ideas but from the way those ideas are used and expanded in the fields we are discussing.

 

I do not think I can add any more to this without going off on one of my philosophical outbursts :wacko: .

 

Thank you all again for a brilliant line of posts and sanuff is sanuff.

 

Regards.   Sharkey :) 

[Alfred]

it keeps throwing unexpected surprises at me

 

Those surprises are so-o-o much harder to deal with than the expected ones, aren't they!! :P

[R C-R]

I can't help feeling, given the large number of requests I have seen here over the last two years, that it might be in Serif's own interests to produce a good step by step example driven online manual in addition to the video tutorials and help files.

I think these requests are asking for much more than is typically provided in user manuals. It just isn't very practical to include detailed tutorials (which is what detailed, step by step examples really are) for every tool or technique, even for apps with significantly fewer features than the Affinity ones. Highly detailed, example driven user manuals could easily require several thousand pages & enormous indexes & glossaries, & that still would not completely eliminate the difficulties of finding things when the terminology differs from what users with different backgrounds are familiar with or when they don't know exactly what to look for.

 

That is why for apps like Photoshop there are thousands of online web pages devoted to such things, not just from Adobe but also from dozens if not hundreds of third party sources.

[DavidMac]

Those surprises are so-o-o much harder to deal with than the expected ones, aren't they!!  :P

 

 

Yes ............ So-o-o much! ;)

 

But no worries .............. with time and experience they're getting more expected!  :o

[DavidMac]

I think these requests are asking for much more than is typically provided in user manuals. It just isn't very practical to include detailed tutorials (which is what detailed, step by step examples really are) for every tool or technique, even for apps with significantly fewer features than the Affinity ones. Highly detailed, example driven user manuals could easily require several thousand pages & enormous indexes & glossaries, & that still would not completely eliminate the difficulties of finding things when the terminology differs from what users with different backgrounds are familiar with or when they don't know exactly what to look for.

 

That is why for apps like Photoshop there are thousands of online web pages devoted to such things, not just from Adobe but also from dozens if not hundreds of third party sources.

Yes that's a very fair point. Then I shall re-phrase. What I would love are static PDF tutorials (that I don't need to keep stopping and starting and can follow at my own pace) to supplement the tutorial videos.

[MikeW]

There are about 249 html files in the help system, a few of which are not topic related. Each of the actual topics have a keyword section. Those that I looked at have terminology as used in the application proper. None that I looked at had keywords of a broader nature. This could be fleshed out pretty easily so persons unfamiliar with say AD's terminology (which is the only Affinity product I have) could find relevant information.

 

Whoever is in charge of documentation at Serif could update so few pages over a weekend if they were familiar with say PS and PSP terms for like functions.

[toltec]

Whoever is in charge of documentation at Serif could update so few pages over a weekend if they were familiar with say PS and PSP terms for like functions.

 

That would be a good place to start, although it would not help 

a People who don't know what things are called

b The huge gaps in the help files

[MikeW]

If one approaches the keywords using PS terms, it helps people migrating. If one approaches keywords from a more simple perspective it can help people unfamiliar with an application altogether.

 

Look, I rarely see this type of post in other applications forums. Why? I think newbies in general who don't know what they don't know ask questions. And they are thus answered.

 

But fleshing out the help topics available and additional keywords would go a long way towards mitigating terminology and usability issues before a post happens.

 

I just created a new topic, added keywords and updated the index in a couple minutes. It is not rocket science. Serif could afford to spend the time required to do so.

 

There will not be an AI approach to the help system on Serif's part. But one can also may also make use of Google's searching power by doing a site search on the local help system, such as it is. At the worst it would require pointing Google to look at the/an online version of the help.

[R C-R]

It still seems obvious to me that a search engine scenario within AP & AD is a straight forward answer to the question that was posed for me to answer.

There is already a search engine built into the help topics.

 

As simply as I can put it, the problem is this kind of engine is not 'smart' enough to make contextual inferences from the words & phrases humans use when they are searching for things. They have no way to determine what humans feel or know, or to do anything more sophisticated than to look for matches in an index, one which cannot possibly be made comprehensive enough to cross-reference everything humans might need help with.

 

There is nothing straightforward about this, even for the extremely sophisticated search algorithms running on billions of dollars of hardware designed specifically for that purpose.

[R C-R]

There are about 249 html files in the help system, a few of which are not topic related.

I suspect you got that number from looking at the British English help files, right?

 

However, if you consider all nine language localizations Affinity Designer supports, the number is a bit north of 2230 files. (For Affinity Photo it is about 3474.) Add to that the pages that must differ for the Mac & Windows versions & terms/keywords that might be common in one language but not in another, & it starts to look like a considerably more involved job to "flesh out" the keywords & terminology than one might think.

[Alfred]

I suspect you got that number from looking at the British English help files, right?

 

Possible, but unlikely, given that Mike is located somewhere north and west of you. :)

[MikeW]

US English.

 

I fully understand localization issues. So what? The task is not insurmountable and would serve Serif's customer base greatly.

 

If I can create a topic, update the index (which is an idiotic task*) and add my topic to the index.html file in minutes, then someone who has whatever authoring tool could do so quicker. I don't know what authoring tool Serif is using, but I sincerely hope it isn't a home-rolled thing.

 

Mike

 

*I was mistaken about the keywords thing I think. As far as I can tell, they are not used unless the authoring tool uses them to generate the index file. I would hope so, but I don't know.

[toltec]

US English.

 

Well, contradictions aside ;)  you would think a company that could come up with something like Affinity could manage an index, wouldn't you?

[R C-R]

Possible, but unlikely, given that Mike is located somewhere north and west of you. :)

If I travel far enough, everybody is located to the west of me.  :P

 

Slightly more seriously, I just wanted to emphasize one of the benefits of putting the help files online. Not only is improving the index no match (pun intended) for the 'smart' search results Google, Bing, etc. generate; with a little legitimate SEO work, it could be a good way to introduce the Affinity apps to potential buyers who otherwise would never know the apps exist.

[jer]

Quote

I think the American version would just need more pictures and less writing    

Oooh! I think I would take offense at this, but I need a picture to make sure I understood it. :wacko: :lol: